Game Design stuff

[Macar]

So, I dont know who else on here will be interested by this (Pound would be, but he's not around). Anyway, I thought I'd post this here incase anyone is interested in reading some game design stuff- this can be a general purpose thread for interesting or relevant gd stuff from the interwebz.

http://designreboot.blogspot.com/
This blog is great, but the most recent article is of PARTICULAR value to us. It's about the process of open-world game design and it's inherent problems. Read it if you're interested in talking about our game.

[dja]

No game can give you a complete sandbox because theres too many options, the player gets lost or confused and you couldnt possibly create enough content for every eventuality of what the player may or may not do.

The cutscenes being high quality tends to be whar draws people to the game, they want to be entertained and have a break now and then from intense action.

The way to do things is like MMOs, to build up content over time and keep adding it, but keep things relatively linear, but enough options so the player has choices of which linear storyline he wishes to follow. I will agree GTA was extremely limited with its choices and that was a fatal flaw in the game.

GTA4 did allow you to go anywhere and do a whole load of completely unrelated stuff, which most people didnt do (or if they did, not often), because it was more often than not a waste of time, there has to be a reason to go and explore and do things other than the main storyline.

I have been playing Mass Effect, and the storyline is very linear, but theres so many assignments that you get to do that I never feel like I am playing just the main storyline, and exploring helps find things that can ultimately aid you in getting more assignments or with being able to complete the main storyline or getting information that enhances the storyline. Not every world can be landed on, but the ones you can land on, usually have some reason to land there, so its not a waste of time.

I would prefer to go the Mass Effect route of RPG, rather than a complete sandbox where the player could spend hours/days/weeks exploring only to not find anything worthwhile. If it enhances the storyline (such as learning more about the lore, which can help with getting information from people that helps you progress the storyline or side quests) then its worth doing. I did not like Oblivion's teleport to location, but the world was too big and empty to have the player walking everywhere all the time, there has to be a compromise.

Is it worth creating a huge continent, only for the player to miss out on 90% of it because they teleport from one location to the next, or for the player to never go further than the first few towns because they dont realise theres a whole world to explore with lots of goodies, because theres nothing pushing them to go explore or visit other places?

--
dja

[Macar]

Well, there are differing preferences. Personally, I like a game with a certain degree of chaos. I dont need game objectives telling me what I'm supposed to do if there are clear options for what I can do.

As for cut scenes- I love to start a game with a good cut scene- but then I'm content for them to stay away and not wrench control away from me. I think Bioshock was perfect in this regard- there were sequences that had the feel of a cutscene because of great level design, lighting, writing and so on.

With RoR, unless we decide to completely change our direction, our primary objective is to capture the sense of wonder and excitement that comes from exploration of the unknown. Bioware games are great, but I dont think they capture that, nor did Oblivion. Morrowind had some of it of course, but it had the same "main plot is sealed/ your actions are fake "

As you said, you cant script every eventuality- but I think the answer is to have less story and more game. I think that games like Spelunky and Mount&Blade get more of the feeling we want here. It's a world where you can do what you want and see what happens

PS- oh look, he added another post about Bethesda!

[Duman]

For a game like this, I really wouldn't mind a large "sandbox" aspect. Really, if it was well designed enough, we could get away with having no main plot. We could just let the player decided exactly what he wants to do and what they get out of it.
I think Oblivion did a good job of not only atmosphere, but exploration.
I have big problems with how Morriwind was designed, but they also did a lot right. It made players start off really small, lost and overwhelmed. That led to good character progression and a very deep and intricate world. However, I think Morriwind overdid it. I felt way TOO lost, confused, overwhelmed and underpowered.
I had this low level character, had no idea what I was doing (my first playing it so DUHHH) and didn't know what to expect. The world was so huge that exploration took forever (not a bad thing) but when I found something, chances were that I would promptly die (a very bad thing). That cycle of being too low to progress and too lost to knowledgeably get something done was insanely frustrating. And it never helped that your character moved like they were wading through mashed freaking potatoes, EVERYWHERE. I tried playing Morriwind three times. I would play for something like eight to ten hours, get murderinygly frustrated, and quit.
And I DONT QUIT. EVER. EVER EVER.
I beat halo 3 on legendary in solo play for the love of science.
Morriwind just became unenjoyable distressingly quickly.
So what I think we should do is have the player contained to an extent in the beginning, let them get acclimated, accustomed and a little leveled, and THEN open the whole world and let them go.
So the player gets a little taste of everything in the beginning, learns the skills needed to survive, give them some fun and interesting options, and then let them do whatever. The logic being that the more informed and entertained we have the player in the beginning, the more they will want to play.
When they first start make the player feel small and vulnerable, but fill them with potential, excitement and opportunities.

[Macar]

Now it's interesting that you should say that. I didnt really find Morrowind very challenging in general. I could be wrong here- but perhaps you are a little more used to a game that actually requires skill to play, like an FPS. Morrowind was sort of like an MMO, inthat it was all about building the right character and getting the right gear (and in the case of MW, a lot of times that was just a matter of knowing where to find the darn stuff, like the uber sword that was just stashed under someone's bed).

I agree though that one of the problems with MW was a crippling walk speed for most characters (though, a fast thiefy type with the birthsign of the steed could do pretty well). This is were MW really needed mounts- IMO.

I think gradualy introducing the players to freedom is a great thought. Start them off in a very controlled teaching environment, then open up just a little bit, and let them earn full freedom after they've gotten to the point where they understand the game mechanics.

For example, I think it would be great if there are encounters that are too tough for low level players- where they do have to turn tail and run. But, if they're in the normal player mindset, they're just going to get frusterated that they cant beat it. However, if they're in a quest early on where theyre required to run away from an overpowered enemy, then you'll have taught them that that's part of the game. There might even be situations where you can do things like sneak into some dangerous enemies lair, steal something then run for your life as the thing chases you. This could be a lot of fun, if the player understands that that's the way of things!

To change subjects a little, I think that we need to have some randomly generated content in our game. Now, we dont want to abuse this concept, but correctly used, prociedural content can very much enhance the elements of wonder and exploration- because every time, you could experience something unexpected.

This was the triumph of Spelunky. For those of you who havent played it, it's sort of an 8 bit platformer where you play a little indiana jones like character who explores these proceidural caves in search of mayan treasure and princesses to rescue. It's all a very intesnse experience, because you have 3 hitpoints, no way to save, and death is perminant. But more importantly, as you explore, you never know what to expect and you really get that sense of freedom and autonomy. When, for example you find an item like a mining pick that alows you to tunnel through walls, in most games you might wonder, "oh, they must be giving me this item because I'm about to need it. I wonder what I'm supposed to use it for." But in spelunky you just go, "awesome, a pick! This will be useful."

It's the freedom of knowing that you're exploring a world that's bigger than you, and could go on about it's business without you. Not one that's waiting for you to step in and do something.

This is also why inter-NPC interactions like the economy and creature ai that causes animals to hunt and flee eachother is so vital.

[Macar]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... Creativity

I found this article sort of inspiring, made me want to do some work

[Thogrim]

"It offered solid, practical advice for anyone in a creative industry who struggles with the long process of bringing his or her ideas to fruition."

Heheh, it's like he wrote this for me.

[MarcoFerrigno]

Its a good blog, I'm following it now.